We Will Carry On Forever — with Tania Aparicio, Zahyr Lauren and Thania Petersen

TRANSCRIPT

The Solidarity Index – Season 2 Episode 1:
We Will Carry On Forever — with Tania Aparicio, Zahyr Lauren and Thania Petersen

[WAVES SURGING]

ZAHYR  [00:08] 

Welcome back to The Solidarity Index! It’s been a minute, but we’ve been busy. Life has been living. The whole team has been organizing at home and in these streets. We thank you all for joining us here on the podcast.

​​[MUSIC]  Until Everybody Is Free by Bella Cuts – featuring the voice of Maya Angelou [00:39]

The truth is, no one of us can be free until everybody is free. No one of us can be free – until everybody is free. Free… Free.

ZAHYR  [00:55] 

I’m your host, Zahyr Lauren, and I’m excited to kick off Season 2 with a conversation rooted in solidarity between South Africa, Palestine, Peru and the Black struggle in the U.S. I was so honored to speak with South African artist, activist and cultural worker Thania Petersen in a conversation hosted by Tania Aparicio – cultural sociologist, professor, arts administrator and advocate. We talked Cape Town organizing for Palestine, art as an offering of love, overcoming the fear of speaking out, and how every ripple of an action births the movement of a wave. P.S. y’all, our sibling Thania made this convo work with an unstable connection, so if this global conversation is a bit choppy at times please give us a little grace – because solidarity transcends the internet. 

So at the beginning of our discussion, Thania shared a video demonstrating the beauty and breadth of the arts based organizing work she’s been doing with the Cape Town community. The song you’ll hear holds both Swedish and Arabic words woven together in solidarity – Leve Palestina, which means “long live Palestine.” It was written in the 70s by George Totari, a Palestinian musician in exile in Sweden. 50 years later, this song has become an anthem for protesters around the world taking to the streets to protest the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza at the hands of the Israeli government. As the anthem plays, the video shows artistic examples of Cape Town’s deep commitment to Palestinian liberation. You can watch the full video on our website, TheSolidarityIndex.com. But for now, just listen and imagine people painting neighborhood murals, flying kites in the breeze, and taxi cabs wrapped in giant keffiyehs and watermelons passing by.

[MUSIC]  Leve Palestina  [03:02]

TANIA  [03:59] 

Thank so much, Thania, for making this video for us. Tell us, who did you work with? Who was involved, and how did you together imagine who is this work accountable to, and who is in relation to this work?

THANIA  [04:15] 

The entire Cape Town community. And it’s not really done just by artists. So what’s been happening in Cape Town is that artists mobilize ideas, but it’s not artists who is actually creating the work. Neighborhoods have collectively come together. One person would buy the paint, another person would just quickly design a mural, and people would really just collectively work together in solidarity. But it has happened organically. And the reason being why in Cape Town it’s so easy to mobilize these things, is because art has always been a language of resistance within South Africa. It’s not something that people think about. It’s just something that it’s a go-to. You know as soon as there’s a problem, everyone is going to be making a song, everyone is going to be dancing. Everybody’s neighbor is going to be in everybody else’s neighbor’s backyard and people just start. No one does anything alone. You know, there’s WhatsApp groups for everything. So if you’re a runner, you belong to a WhatsApp group of runners. If you’re into diving, you belong in a WhatsApp group of divers. As soon as something happens, all these WhatsApp groups and whatever activities you’re involved in get mobilized. So for instance, all the skaters they immediately will get together and start using every night that they would normally be skateboarding together – they would then dedicate their time to protesting for Palestine. But still doing what they would normally do together.

THANIA  [05:54] 

And so it’s very easy for artists then to intercept in these spaces and go to runners and say, can we make you T-shirts? And immediately you have like 200 people running together, all geared up in Palestinian something. It’s kind of said, but we kind of equipped for protest because it’s something that we’ve had to do for 400 years. So our taxis, which is our public transport system, is the only sort of Black owned and Black supported system within South Africa’s infrastructure. And so what I started doing three years ago was collaborating with the taxi owners, taxi bosses. I was trying to turn these taxis into, uh, immersive art pieces, because most working class communities don’t have access to art. And so cut three years later, Jay Pather, who is the, um, university professor, he phoned me and he said, Thania is there anything that you would like to do for this time to stand in solidarity with Palestine? And we decided that it was time to resurrect this project, use the public transport system. What’s important to understand about the public transport system in South Africa is that it’s only black and brown bodies that use this transport, and what it needs to do is it needs to navigate through apartheid architecture.

THANIA  [07:33] 

The only time that you still sort of find yourself in white areas is when these taxis bring you through into these white areas. So most Zionist communities, of course, live in white South African areas. So we were very strategic in collaborating with the taxis because they have access. So we then used this transport to agitate and protest in the Zionist areas itself. With all the policing, there was no way we would have been able to get into these areas and just protest on a whim at any given time. So the transport was really an essential thing. But what also started happening, it started flipping the power dynamics within these areas because these communities went crazy. They didn’t want the taxis in the area. They tried to boycott the taxis. But what happened was when they tried to bully the taxi owners, the taxi owners said, Well you don’t support us. We don’t need you – but you do need us, because without us you have no staff. So it was a power dynamic that shifted even within the city of Cape Town. So this is why we were very strategic in working with the public transport system, to stand in solidarity with Palestine was also to create this discomfort within these areas.

TANIA  [08:58] 

That’s amazing – the strategizing and finding the thresholds to know where to push.

[WAVES SURGING]

ZAHYR  [09:09] 

For me, I think the work comes from more a desire to support the people who are on the front lines, as well as to build a visual community. And so I have Flowers for Palestine, which is the bandana that I’m wearing. And Flowers for Palestine is the second piece that I’ve done in honor of our Palestinian family members. The first was in, I think, 2016, and I had someone in community who I knew was going to Palestine, and I asked him to take that piece and give it to a family there. And so for me, that is folks who are on the front lines, folks who are being oppressed, as well as those who are putting their bodies on the line and taking risks to lift all of us from that oppression. Flowers for Palestine came to be, of course, in the most recent incidents that we’re living through right now, the current genocide in Palestine. There are three flowers there. There’s flowers for youth, flowers for the olive trees, and flowers for culture. It was originally on canvas. That canvas currently belongs to a congresswoman who fights for Palestine. Because, again, I felt like I wanted to give her an offering of love because we’re watching people who are risking it all to fight for this cause.  

ZAHYR  [10:26] 

And I feel like very often those people are not the ones being held. And so part of the work is trying my best through the art to hold them. These were sold for donations to the Center for Constitutional Rights, who is suing the Biden administration for genocide in Palestine. And the goal with these bandanas was to raise $3,333 – multiples of the symbol of unity, which is one. And we were able to achieve that. But the purpose of that was so that community members could have access to this piece and use it in a similar way that the Panthers would, right? If you see the Black Panthers walking down the street, you know what time it is. You know what the ethos is. You know what the setting is behind that movement. My spirit just wanted to operate in a way where I could offer folks something where they can come into as a community, as well as go out into the world and talk about.

TANIA  [11:28] 

And I remember you telling me that there was a point where you also were working through these friends to get these ideas back to their family, back in Palestine. You sent this out and I’m wondering what came back to you.

ZAHYR  [11:44] 

Auntie actually went back to Palestine to check on her olive trees, and got caught there when Israel started heavily bombing Gaza. Nothing that I create is gonna solve any of these problems, but for someone to see that someone put the time and attention into this, to offer them something that may put a smile on their face or may adorn them, or may keep them warm or something, and for them to also see that there’s a community of people who are standing behind this visually as well, I think can mean something to somebody… because, again, we don’t live – particularly in the U.S. – in a country where it’s necessarily the safest to stand along Palestinians or to be Palestinian. So I think that as artists, there’s always something we could do that is able to bring some goodness to someone in all of these situations, and that’s always my intention.

TANIA  [12:41] 

Those pieces about knowing what gifts we have to offer… and one of those is creating these connections of bringing us together through a bandana, through a painted bus, that is this constant reminder that this world that we’re experiencing, that we’re witnessing – that we are not alone, that there are others seeing it too. It is so important because the monopoly of cultural power that is held around pro-Israel propaganda, pro-Zionist propaganda, and the fact that ours comes from different places, from a place of having lived in bodies that have witnessed and experienced settler colonial violence. Bodies that remember what what that feels like, and making those connections, sending those signals to connect with that past, to connect not only with each other right now, but with these histories that we bring with us. You begin from this individual gesture that might feel like a drop. Every drop has ripples. Every drop of water makes an impact. And it’s thinking about what the ripple is that is important. And that’s what I’m hearing from you both, is that you found ways to create ripples, to create ripples for people who who want to see that, who want to connect, and for people to feel loved, to feel connection, and in some cases, also discomfort.

TANIA  [14:12] 

Right? Because our actions are pushing back, are bringing Palestine into center… takes us out of our comfort zone, and takes people who don’t want to think about Palestine out of their comfort zone. And that should be important. That should be also part of our of our work. I’m at a university that has become the front lines in a way of censorship for any type of Palestine solidarity. And in previous semesters, when I have taught solidarity with Palestine in my classes I, you know, I didn’t have to think about it as much, uh, in terms of, like what what’s at stake? What might I lose if I center my class around Palestine? In this work, have you found any sort of challenges? Who in a way came against it? Or did you have to confront a bit of, of resistance, of, of censorship, of silencing in this work?

THANIA  [15:12] 

In Cape Town, at the beginning when things started, there was quite a lot of visible Zionist pushback in the city, especially at protests, and artists work was getting ripped off walls. We haven’t been receiving much pushback anymore, even with the public transport. That happens very silently. But the drivers, the public transport drivers, have reported that they had been harassed on a couple of occasions. But bearing in mind that our public transport system is quite gangster, so people don’t really mess with taxi drivers because they notorious on the road. And that was another reason why I chose to collaborate with the taxi drivers, because no one can control them, you know? And at this point, we just need people who just don’t fit into the system, who’s not bullied, who’s totally ungovernable because the people making the rules are not our friends. I needed to cross that threshold and go to the people breaking the rules. And that was the taxi drivers. You know, it’s been very quiet since our government has taken Israel to the ICJ. And also, I mean, Nelson Mandela was vocal. Nelson Mandela’s grandson leads all the protests. So we feel quite safe and we feel quite held by our government.

ZAHYR  [16:51] 

For me, since my work is not on a grand scale anywhere, I haven’t faced those type of incidents and issues as an individual with this bandana or anything I’ve done, any of the work that I’ve done. I do think that because of how vocal I’ve been on social media I have been shadowbanned. When I was trying to raise money, I used the Facebook advertising and stuff like that. All those got flagged and didn’t get sent out. So you know there’s ways that, as you said before, our messaging as a village gets tamped down and other messaging that is in opposition to our freedom gets elevated… and social media is one of those ways. So for me, that’s the max of what I’ve had to face. I do worry sometimes that if there does come a moment where I do want to venture into institution, because of the way that I’ve taken a stand that’s not going to happen. I do my own thing and I don’t depend on these people anyway, as a Black American. As a Black American who speaks nothing on justice issues we still have issues getting into these places by the nature of race. So for me, it’s kind of one of those things where it’s like I’ma I’m just going to do what I want.

TANIA [18:06] 

Yeah… yeah.

THANIA  [18:08] 

Because my gallery is American, and so most of my sales and things happen in America, so I was harassed on social media by collectors. I mean, I was called anti-Semitic and I was accused of many things. And one collector went as far as giving me a whole history lesson. And she took the time to write out like three essays. And I was threatened. I had sales canceled, and I had work returned to the gallery. So in the beginning things were crazy. But now no one buys my work in America, and that’s okay! Yeah.

TANIA  [18:50] 

I wanted to hear about this because as educators, as cultural workers, as artists who are workers, we are all directly or indirectly connected to institutions who hold power, who in many instances have ties to wealthy Zionists who use these institutions as extensions of their power. There are moments when we confront the reality that that us pointing out what seems to be very clear that’s happening, might turn against us. And I think there’s multiple ways to think about this. On the one hand, I think it’s really important to identify what are the risks that I’m taking and how far can I go? Ask ourselves, What am I actually losing if I lose this? Can I afford to lose my full time job? Can I afford to lose my medical care? Can I afford to lose my career? The three of us here perhaps have sat with that and come to terms that if we lose whatever we seem to have, then, then maybe we actually didn’t want that. I mean, that’s how I how I felt it. And when I realized, like, no, I’m going to continue teaching, I’m going to continue talking about this because if, if they if this is the reason why I lose what I’ve been working for, if I lose my job, if I lose my career because of this, I think I can be okay with that. I need to thank my dad for that. My dad at some point did denounce corruption, and he lost his job and we were unhoused for a while and it was rough. I’m not scared of being broke or poor or in deep debt because that’s been pretty much all my life. And on the other hand, I can also understand why people might be afraid of, are not able to, to make those decisions. So I wanted to open up the conversation with you guys about our colleagues, our friends, our family that make art, who find themselves in this bind with censorship.

THANIA  [20:59] 

In South Africa, there’s no access to healthcare. If you don’t have money, there’s no housing. If you don’t have money, there’s no education. If you don’t have money – and we have the highest crime rates in the world – and so if you don’t have money, you’re very vulnerable to a very violent reality. But saying that at the end of the day, we also have a history of enslavement and colonialism. If my work is used to silence me, then I’m becoming enslaved by my work. So I’m not afraid of finding something else to do if I have to. But it is a very uncomfortable thought because I have three children and a mother and a husband. But like you, you know, my father left when I was four years old in 1984 as an exile, and we had no idea what was going to happen. I mean, we had no idea what our future would be, but we were always okay. And so I have to believe that we are part of a generational story. And with each generation, they pave the lessons for the next – that we can never allow ourselves to be enslaved again. Whether it’s ideologically, spiritually, it doesn’t matter. You know, we cannot be silenced, not with these children being murdered. We just can’t. It’s just it’s not an option.

ZAHYR  [22:22] 

Yeah. I mean, I echo that that’s real. I mean, I’m, I’m terrified almost every day about what’s going to happen if I don’t make it. When I don’t come from any generational wealth. I definitely really battle with these feelings of like, am I being irresponsible to my family and my community? And at the same time, I have to echo, this is really not an option for a lot of us. It doesn’t feel to me like, Okay, you’re scared. Well, you got to stop doing X, Y, and Z. Like, I can’t actually stomach what’s happening right now. And I know that what’s happening right now to our family members and Palestine is so close and rooted in what happens to Black people in the United States. Our oppressors do the same training. They go visit each other and compare notes. So if we’re not really giving a boost to the ways in which we can be in community, the ways we can share notes, the ways we can fight back, um, and use the art to do that, I think we’re doing ourselves and the generations coming behind us a great disservice. And I think art is particular. As an attorney sure I can say, Hey this case, this case, and this case, what this means is this for our community. Don’t anybody want to hear all that. But people want to wear this, and this can open up a conversation as to how we should be in solidarity with one another. This can open up a dinner table at somebody’s house. Art can open up so many ways that we are able to be true companions to one another in this life and in the struggle that other professions just can’t. So I think used with some intention, it is a powerful source, and it’s what I’m being called to do. And that’s just the bottom line of it.

TANIA  [24:08] 

I very much agree. I feel strong in my community. I feel strong in the people who who love me and support me and and feel the pain that I feel by witnessing… death, and like Thania was saying just – starvation, and total destruction. It hurts to see trees being destroyed. It’s just it’s it’s it’s painful. And I know my community is standing with me in this. So to me, it’s also a constant reminder that we need people in those institutions being critical, yes… I also want to imagine an art world – or worlds – in which art brings us together, that are beyond and like outside of those institutions. That we are making art worlds constantly. And I want to keep reminding myself of that, that if there’s not an institution that is housing me, that it’s employing me, that I can still rely on those other art worlds, those multiple art worlds that exist around us, that we are sustaining, that we are nourishing, that we are the ones doing the work to make. And just a constant reminder and that grounding that if that art world doesn’t want me, I will go and find with my community and my family, and I will continue doing the artwork that I’ve been doing so far, and creating life there, and creating strength and solidarity in those other spaces. When we are in relation with each other, when we are also accountable to each other of continuing that work, even if if at some point it may feel scary and risky, but that the work will continue even if it’s not in the shape that we thought it was going to take. Yeah, that’s the lesson I’m taking right now. That’s where I find my strength. And perhaps it’s like a very particular, um, way of understanding this.. and that’s where I find my strength to say, like, Okay, if I lose my job, I think I will be okay. 

[WAVES SURGING]

TANIA  [26:19] 

Is there anything that you would like to share as you like reflect a bit about this process?

ZAHYR  [26:25] 

Word. I’ll just quickly say that all of us can offer something. Doesn’t matter how big, how small, everybody can offer something. And for me, the lesson with these bandanas was pretty deep. After I did the original work, we were talking in community about what’s going on, and an older Black lady in community asked me what I wanted to do with the work, and I was like, Well, I’m hoping to raise money with it, but I don’t have enough money to produce them. And she said, Oh, I’ll cover that. And this is not someone who’s wealthy either. So she found a way to get hundreds of dollars to produce these. And then the community just started to come in and build off of that. And what I learned from that is that people are desperate to be involved and to be in community to do something, and we can all offer an opportunity for folks to do that, whether it’s a conversation, a donation, whatever. And that ripple effect is more powerful than I feel like we give it credit for. Just remember, we can all offer something.

THANIA  [27:32] 

Yeah I agree. I absolutely agree because, I mean, that is how Cape Town operates. You know, it’s just everyone – doesn’t matter who – everyone’s making kites, everyone’s painting shoes, everyone’s painting clothes. It’s just mobilizing every aspect and activating every – every social space that we have in different ways.

ZAHYR  [28:00] 

Well you’re definitely a hero and an inspiration to me. Along your creative journey, what in your heart makes you continue to stand this way with your art in the face of oppressive regimes? And what makes you fearless? Because at the end of the day, you know, there’s an openness to risk here that you’re demonstrating on a on a wide scale. So what roots you in fearlessness?

THANIA  [28:27] 

You know, I mean, I was born during apartheid. You know, we know apartheid. We we know it. And so we just can’t allow it. I don’t think any black or brown South African can just sit and watch apartheid be inflicted on anyone. It’s just not even a question. But I think what informs me most of all is that Cape Town, we are the end game. We are the success of apartheid. We literally live in the most segregated city on earth. Honestly, when I see Palestine and I see Palestinians and I see what’s happening, as horrific and insane it is – I still feel as though they have hope, because they still fighting. They still know who they are. They still have their dignity. If you come to Cape Town, the settlers own our entire country and we are left cleaning toilets. And this is the norm. This is the norm. Like we’ve even forgotten who the who the enemy is here. When I look at Palestinians and I look at Palestine, I think, Oh my God, there’s hope. There’s hope. You know, like, yeah… we feel hopeless. Yeah, for ourselves. But yet we find it in ourselves to fight for Palestine because we understand that something can be avoided. And I think that is perhaps what drives us insane, because you have to be insane you know? It’s just like, What?? No! It can’t be. We can’t allow it. It’s just crazy, you know? You know, in South Africa, we’ve become our own worst enemy because we don’t know who the bad guy is anymore. That is when you know apartheid and colonialism has won. [ZAHYR: Mm hmm.] And in Palestine they know who the enemy is – and it’s not them. [ZAHYR: Right.] And that’s the difference. And because of that we will just carry on forever and just fight.

[WAVES SURGING]

ZAHYR  [30:42] 

Community can be the antidote to fear. 

Our gratitude to Thania Petersen and Tania Aparicio for sharing in this conversation. To CTHQ – Creative Time Headquarters – for generously making it possible. And to the Amplify Palestine collective for organizing it with us. 

Communities of conscience are banding together. People around the world are lifting their voices and lending their talents to the movement for a more just society. 

Thanks for joining us as we launch this new season. We hope you tune in for the next episode of The Solidarity Index – featuring renowned astrologer and activist Chani Nicholas.

[MUSIC]  Until Everybody Is Free by Bella Cuts – featuring the voice of Maya Angelou  [00:31:26] 

The truth is, no one of us can be free until everybody’s free. No one of us can be free – until everybody’s free.

ZAHYR  [31:41] 

The Solidarity Index is an independent bootstrap podcast, so pull up on our website, TheSolidarityIndex.com. Help support by grabbing some of our merch that we just dropped, with organic and recycled materials whenever possible, every item is produced to order. I mean let’s be real, coffee tastes better in a Solidarity Index mug. You can also make a one time or recurring donation, and you can get new episodes sent direct to your inbox by joining our mailing list. 

If you’re enjoying our content, please let us know! You can email us at [email protected] or tag us on Instagram @TheSolidarityIndex. 

This podcast is a production of State of Mind Media, created and produced by Jen Bell, Shalva Wise, Stina Hamlin, and yours truly – Zahyr Lauren. Audio editing and production by Stina Hamlin. Audio mix by Raquel Saldivar. Logo and identity design by Marwan Kaabour. Art direction, website and additional design by Jen Bell. Our theme song, Until Everybody Is Free by Bella Cuts, is out everywhere you listen to music. All proceeds from streaming and downloads go to the Doctor Maya Angelou Foundation. All the music selections can be referenced in the show notes. 

I’m your host, Zahyr Lauren, aka The Artist L.Haz. We appreciate you all for listening. Peace.

[MUSIC]  Until Everybody Is Free by Bella Cuts – featuring the voice of Maya Angelou  [33:09] 

The truth is, no one of us can be free until everybody’s free. No one of us can be free – until everybody’s free.